My (personal) opinion about a mis-use of the Speakeasy.

[Yesspaz]

Originally Posted by ErikM

I'm using the Speakeasy because I was thinking it is a "freedom of speech"-corner. Well, I'm very wrong. It isn't ! And that's why I said I didn't feel very welcome anymore.

Hi, Erik. First, please don't leave. We don't want you to feel unwelcome. That's not the point of what Jam and Jim were discussing. Promoting a show in a freedom-of-speech way is surely fine. If I had a jazz show on a jazz station, and I occasionally said in this speakeasy, "Hey, everyone. I have a show called JazzSpaz that you should check out sometime," I don't think anyone would have a real issue. The issue is in saying over the air to my JazzSpaz listners, "We don't have a shoutbox or chat room on this site, so everyone go over to Auralmoon.com and we'll use their shoutbox."

By the way, I don't know what it means in Belgium, but in the Constitution of the United States of America [which AM calls home], freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to say anything you want at anytime you want anywhere you want. You can't go in a church in the middle of a worship service and start reading from the phone book, and then say "Freedom of speech" when someone asks you to stop. You can't get a bullhorn and start reciting Mein Kampf in the parking lot of the mall without getting arrested for vagrancy, public nuisance, trespassing, or sound ordinance. "Freedom of speech" will not get you out of legal trouble.

What freedom of speech does mean is that we American citizens have the right to speak against the policies of our government, to speak our conscience, to speak our opinions, without fear of reprisal by the government. There are sanctioned ways to do this, via freedom of the press and the right to petition the government.

One major component of this is that freedom of speech applies to the PUBLIC forum, not the PRIVATE forum. Meaning, in a public forum, I can express my political views, religious views, or whatever. I cannot walk around the parking lot of a mall handing out political literature without permission; it's a public place, but owned by the private company that owns the mall. You can blaspheme God all you want walking through the public park. Say it my house and I can ask you to stop or leave.

My point? Auralmoon is not a public forum. It is privately owned by Jim Brennan of San Diego, CA. He can and does allow a LOT of freedom of speech in the public areas of his private forum. I freely express my Christianity. Others freely express their atheism. We all express our loathing of pop radio. But one thing I can bet the private owner and his helpers don't want to do is pay for a forum for someone else to appropriate for another station. That's not freedom of speech.

That being said, ErikM, we'd love you to stay around and enjoy the prog and programming of Auralmoon.

Spaz out.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Yesspaz

Hi, Erik. First, please don't leave. We don't want you to feel unwelcome. That's not the point of what Jam and Jim were discussing. Promoting a show in a freedom-of-speech way is surely fine. If I had a jazz show on a jazz station, and I occasionally said in this speakeasy, "Hey, everyone. I have a show called JazzSpaz that you should check out sometime," I don't think anyone would have a real issue. The issue is in saying over the air to my JazzSpaz listners, "We don't have a shoutbox or chat room on this site, so everyone go over to Auralmoon.com and we'll use their shoutbox."

By the way, I don't know what it means in Belgium, but in the Constitution of the United States of America [which AM calls home], freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to say anything you want at anytime you want anywhere you want. You can't go in a church in the middle of a worship service and start reading from the phone book, and then say "Freedom of speech" when someone asks you to stop. You can't get a bullhorn and start reciting Mein Kampf in the parking lot of the mall without getting arrested for vagrancy, public nuisance, trespassing, or sound ordinance. "Freedom of speech" will not get you out of legal trouble.

What freedom of speech does mean is that we American citizens have the right to speak against the policies of our government, to speak our conscience, to speak our opinions, without fear of reprisal by the government. There are sanctioned ways to do this, via freedom of the press and the right to petition the government.

One major component of this is that freedom of speech applies to the PUBLIC forum, not the PRIVATE forum. Meaning, in a public forum, I can express my political views, religious views, or whatever. I cannot walk around the parking lot of a mall handing out political literature without permission; it's a public place, but owned by the private company that owns the mall. You can blaspheme God all you want walking through the public park. Say it my house and I can ask you to stop or leave.

My point? Auralmoon is not a public forum. It is privately owned by Jim Brennan of San Diego, CA. He can and does allow a LOT of freedom of speech in the public areas of his private forum. I freely express my Christianity. Others freely express their atheism. We all express our loathing of pop radio. But one thing I can bet the private owner and his helpers don't want to do is pay for a forum for someone else to appropriate for another station. That's not freedom of speech.

That being said, ErikM, we'd love you to stay around and enjoy the prog and programming of Auralmoon.

Spaz out.

Thank you 'Spaz for clearly stating, with examples, that the Freedom of Speech doesn't guarantee or mean that one has the freedom of speech anywhere or everywhere!

[deSousa]

Originally Posted by Yesspaz

My point? Auralmoon is not a public forum. It is privately owned by Jim Brennan of San Diego, CA.

Spaz you might be in err on this one. Anyone can register and use the Speakeasy and the Forum at their own will, I doubt you'd get away with this in court, at least in Europe.

But I wouldn't dive too much into nationality issues here, common sense is international.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by deSousa

Spaz you might be in err on this one. Anyone can register and use the Speakeasy and the Forum at their own will, I doubt you'd get away with this in court, at least in Europe.

Oh??? Where in Europe? Generally speaking, the concepts which comprise Freedom of Speech, Expression and Press are far more limited by law throughout Europe than in the US. Regardless, NONE OF THAT LAW pertains to speech within the confines of a private forum such as Aural Moon.

Yes, anyone can register. There is, however, a terms of service agreement which all agree to when signing up for an account here. One must agree to the terms to become a member here; therefore, is it not a contract of adhesion, nor it is unconscionable. Under common law, this is a valid contract for it satisfies all of the legal elements: Agreement, Offer, Acceptance and Consideration. With limitation, one could contract their rights away!

Originally Posted by deSousa

But I wouldn't dive too much into nationality issues here, common sense is international.

It seems that ignorance is international too. Ignorance of the law, that is. We've been around and around on this subject before and it's tiring.

[deSousa]

Originally Posted by VAXman

Yes, anyone can register. There is, however, a terms of service agreement which all agree to when signing up for an account here. One must agree to the terms to become a member here; therefore, is it not a contract of adhesion, nor it is unconscionable. Under common law, this is a valid contract for it satisfies all of the legal elements: Agreement, Offer, Acceptance and Consideration. With limitation, one could contract their rights away!

Past experiences with the law lead me to conclude otherwise. Not to mention the fact that there may not be a way to identify a registered user with a legal entity/person.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by deSousa

Past experiences with the law lead me to conclude otherwise.

In reference to which legal particulars which I have stated???

Originally Posted by deSousa

Not to mention the fact that there may not be a way to identify a registered user with a legal entity/person.

Not always. However, unless you're intentionally trying to hide using the clandestine methods of many hackers, your IP address and activity time stamp can be used to find out who you are. Nearly every ISPs, even if you are given a dynamically assigned address, will be able to trace you down. If may require court subpoena to obtain said info but it does exist. Also, you must supply an email address here on Aural Moon (and with many other forums) to which you receive activation credentials to enable your account. That too can be used to align you with the account user. Cybernetic forensics are commonly used in courts for this purpose. I've been involved in the forensics of such court cases

Enlighten yourself instead of assuming, wrongly, that you are correct in those assumptions. Free Speech in Online Communities: The Delusion of Entitlement

[meissa]

Originally Posted by VAXman

Free Speech in Online Communities: The Delusion of Entitlement

THANK YOU.

I thought it was clear that this place, being a not for profit and privately funded by the owner and patrons alike, that there are gonna be some restrictions on what can be said/not be said in the speakeasy or the forums. Apparently I was wrong. I think for the most part the "restrictions" are very liberal and it's kinda sad that because of that boundaries have been stepped on. We have to remember that this is Jim's "house", and even though we do contribute at our own will to keeping it rich in music and other content, we have to respect the rules that are written in the TOS, as well as those unspoken, common courtesy life rules. This is not nor will ever be a "public" place, no matter how hard some try to believe otherwise.

[deSousa]

Originally Posted by VAXman

Enlighten yourself instead of assuming, wrongly, that you are correct in those assumptions.

Your enlightenment is not being very enlightening to me. I was victim of a fraud attempt in 2008 which eventually lead me to be questioned by the judiciary police. I managed to proved I wasn't the culprit but the real criminal was never caught. When the case was closed the lead investigator told me in the end that they can only identify 1 in 100 of such fraudsters; if the IP of origin leads to somewhere outside the EU then you can simply forget about it.

So good luck in identifying someone that one day really tries to mess up in this forum.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by deSousa

Your enlightenment is not being very enlightening to me. I was victim of a fraud attempt in 2008 which eventually lead me to be questioned by the judiciary police. I managed to proved I wasn't the culprit but the real criminal was never caught. When the case was closed the lead investigator told me in the end that they can only identify 1 in 100 of such fraudsters; if the IP of origin leads to somewhere outside the EU then you can simply forget about it.

So good luck in identifying someone that one day really tries to mess up in this forum.

Commission of fraud and Freedom of Speech are two completely disparate issues.

I'd previously stated that "unless you're intentionally trying to hide using the clandestine methods of many hackers," because that's what they do. I won't elaborate here on the many ways in which they can hide their trail; let it suffice to say that they can and do.

[progdirjim(Admin)]

We've drifted off of the point of the thread. We, the providers of the Aural Moon: stream (me), website (Vaxman), key tech support (JamForte); all felt it inappropriate for a person who has not contributed anything to Aural Moon operations, who has a live radio show on another internet radio stream, HOST his show in our shoutbox. Meaning he invited all of his listeners to chat in the shoutbox, whilst his show was airing. The shoutbox consumes a LOT of bandwidth that Vaxman pays for out of his own pocket.

If you have a prog or proggish show outside of Aural Moon, you are welcome to post about it in the forum. You are welcome to talk about in shoutbox. Please, respect our wallets, and don't drain our resources that we provide out of the goodness of our hearts.