Is it time for Aural Moon to expand??

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by kirk
jim just has to show he's attempting to make money.

k

And I think that's the rub here. Now I'm not an accountant, nor do I play one on TV, but Aural Moon isn't exactly under a money winning business model. It's a labor of love or we'd ALL be paying $10/month or more for the priviledge of the 56k stream, with an additional bonus of $25/month for the 128s.

And I'd likely be charging $25/30 per for my services. But I don't. And I wouldn't. I do it because of the love of the music (and the fact that I've got a few screws loose, but that's beside the point).

These figures are from the Thin Aire school of accounting, but in my estimation, that's about what it would run to make it profitable.

Roger -Dot- Lee, who really should get the latest updates into the library, but hasn't been able to maintain network uptime sufficient to even log into the station, let alone do something as time intensive as library updates.

[Rick and Roll]

There are many ways to look at it. Regardless of whether anyone "makes money" or "loses money" can be determined in a number of ways. (I have a reality show as an accountant. )

I'm a firm believer in covering the fixed costs. In order to obtain and maintain the needed items to increase the listenership, a significant upgrade is needed in both time and funding. It does no good to make upgrades without the time commitment.

I have no clue as to the investment needed to run the station if there's an upgrade. Technical wizardry is not in my blood. But I can budget a wart off of an ass of a rhino.

In other words, if I'm supplied all of the numbers and time figures at some point regarding an upgrade, I can certainly tell you what it would take to break even.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
And I think that's the rub here. Now I'm not an accountant, nor do I play one on TV, but Aural Moon isn't exactly under a money winning business model. It's a labor of love or we'd ALL be paying $10/month or more for the priviledge of the 56k stream, with an additional bonus of $25/month for the 128s.

About the price for the satellite radio services. Just to put this in perspective, I'd wager that the lion's share of the listeners here pay for TV.

Originally posted by Roger Lee
And I'd likely be charging $25/30 per for my services. But I don't. And I wouldn't. I do it because of the love of the music (and the fact that I've got a few screws loose, but that's beside the point).

Wow, you're cheap!

[kirk]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
And I think that's the rub here. Now I'm not an accountant, nor do I play one on TV, but Aural Moon isn't exactly under a money winning business model.

well, yeah...there's the problem. you need more server space.
the only way to get it, is either finding deeper, or dipping
into listener's pockets.

IMO, that won't work. the few loyalists you have
here in the forum obviously don't make up the 125 or so
(according to shoutcast) peak hr. listeners.
that faceless majority will likely switch stations,
especially w/ one PRRN station's free 80k stream,
and another @128k.
it's a tough sell when the competition's giving it away.

APPEARING TO ATTEMPT to make money is a far cry from
actually making money.
if i started showing a profit, i'd buy some TV time or something
so i didn't...understand? if i show a profit, i have to pay taxes...
not the goal.
the other way, i'm building my "brand", promoting my project
for free.
i would then write off the ads next year as part of a business loss.
also, i don't pay sales tax on my equipment or related items
(like my computer).
it's used to make a product for resale (cds).
the tax is collected at the time of sale.
guitar center has my # on file, all purchases are to zenpool,
not me personally.


for AM, the easiest thing to sell is space.
sell banner ads to bands, cd sellers, prog record companies.
not jim or roger, AM the entity.
it doesn't matter how many you sell.
if they sell, it supports the station.
if they don't, jim can write the difference off to the
actual cost of running the station as a business loss.
it's the attempt that matters.
back it all up w/ receipts, the government's cool w/ it.

scaping up $2200 worth of write offs should be no problem.
it just has to be treated as a small business, rather than an
ever-increasing costly hobby that actually has an incentive
not to grow. it's likely you could increase listeners X3
as suggested, but under this scenario, why would you want to
do that?


k

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by kirk
scaping up $2200 worth of write offs should be no problem.

k

which will net a portion back in real dollars. This is not a tax credit. You'll get back only whatever rate your tax bracket is in.

You can always write off business losses against income, but over time you can never get back enough to offset the total dollars spent. Not even close. As you have stated, there are non-cash adjustments such as depreciation and mileage, but it is not significant here.

A common misconception is tax refunds vs. actual profit and loss. They are not the same thing.

I do agree with your point, Kirk, about expanding the station is not happening if it's just a hobby. Very true - the incentive is not there.

[kirk]

i'll PM you...this server space costs money!

k

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally posted by kirk
well, yeah...there's the problem. you need more server space.
the only way to get it, is either finding deeper, or dipping
into listener's pockets.

I just want to point out that it's not server space needed, it's bandwidth.

The hardware is cheap -- almost disposable -- and, for all intents and purposes, a one time cost. The internet bandwidth to support more listeners is what costs money and it's a recurring cost.

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Hold up, Kirk and Rick. I'm going to e-mail Rick, and we'll start the detailed discussion. I'm looking for a good accountant anyway, as my tax situation is fairly complex. (If I ask you for advice not related to Aural Moon, you can charge me at your normal rate.)

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by VAXman
Wow, you're cheap!

The Moon is non profit. Now I can't command the triple digit per hour rate that you get, but for what I do, I command market rates. Or maybe a little more...

At least that's what I've been told...

[kirk]

thanks vax-
not my field of expertise.
i'm a computer audio expert, but can't even spell HTML!

all i know is, whatever it is, you need more of it,
and it's going to be more expensive to get it..no?

what's needed is a way to defray costs so the
station can grow.

that either has to come from the pockets of the admin here,
or a way has to be found to bring it in from outside.
there has to be a business model in place, so that
growth isn't just a bigger financial burden.


k

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by RogorMortis
I take my hat for Jim but when I first saw Cozy's note I was thinking perhaps in terms of a second server in Europe which could be a cheaper option. But I've dropped the idea as it would mean 2 different streams although it would save us a lot shipping costs donating any music.

How would it do that? We'd still need the original CD to be legal. Having the remote server wouldn't change that. Simply having an off-shore server wouldn't free us from our copyright obligations, I don't believe.

Am I missing something?

Roger -Dot- Lee, not a lawyer, and grateful for that.

[Rick and Roll]

You're correct dot...although I'm not sure if that's what Rogor was saying...although I'm never really sure what he's saying

Thanks for stepping in Jim...I was getting a bit uncomfortable talking about Moon finances (and guessing no less!).

Kirk and I have taken our discussion offline..and it's a good one at that.

Look forward to the email.....

[Yesspaz]

Hey everyone. I've been away for a week and just got back. I've scanned this thread loosely and just wanted to throw a few comments out.

I like VAX's idea of $0.01 per minute on requests. I'd cut down on requests as a whole (for good or for ill), but would bring in a little money. However, the idea of doubling the price when something is requested again I think is not good. It's less a deterrent and instead seems punitive. The fact that RQs cost anything would be enough. Let them RQ Supper's Ready ten times - that's $2.30, baby.

Another way to raise money for the station is to do little "fund-raisers" like selling old cds through the site give half to AM, etc. Lots of possibilities there.

But that payola idea of VAX's is killer. Take off the doubling repeated requests thing and I say go with it.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
Hey everyone. I've been away for a week and just got back. I've scanned this thread loosely and just wanted to throw a few comments out.

I like VAX's idea of $0.01 per minute on requests. I'd cut down on requests as a whole (for good or for ill), but would bring in a little money. However, the idea of doubling the price when something is requested again I think is not good. It's less a deterrent and instead seems punitive. The fact that RQs cost anything would be enough. Let them RQ Supper's Ready ten times - that's $2.30, baby.

Another way to raise money for the station is to do little "fund-raisers" like selling old cds through the site give half to AM, etc. Lots of possibilities there.

But that payola idea of VAX's is killer. Take off the doubling repeated requests thing and I say go with it.

I'm surprised so many think my idea would/could work. Especially since it was clearly written to be facetious and cheeky.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by VAXman
I'm surprised so many think my idea would/could work. Especially since it was clearly written to be facetious and cheeky.

I don't. So that proves the point it must be a good idea.

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by VAXman
I'm surprised so many think my idea would/could work. Especially since it was clearly written to be facetious and cheeky.

Personally I liked it in a 'what if' sorta way. My first thought when I saw it was "I'd never have the time to code it." My second was "I don't NEED to, since Vax can."

[sharcnorris]

From a listeners viewpoint:
I request seldom, what "pay-pal" type entity could bother with pitling accounts of 10 cents or so for a month of requests to bill me for it.
When I click on a Sound stream, I get it, I don't understand the Moons listeners limit when I've never been limited.
I have no problem with Ad banners on the site, there is an abundonce of empty module space at the bottom of the Homepage and frankly I seldom slide down there anyway,
Just no Audio advertisment!!! Print ads are a part of America from stadiums to urinal billboards,Big deal, I don't think artistic Banners of Proggy products lessens the site or its vision.
If you what more listeners Who therefor will love your product so much they wiil want to subscribe and send you money) these are my thoughts:
Bill requests if you must but show when they will appear, I don't request because I'm usually not around by the time it comes up an hour later. I have always wished that the COMING UP NEXT list was longer, this list keeps me here sometimes when I was going elsewhere.
Now this one will be hard for Dr. D and Jim to swallow as it goes directly against their intent
Play better music and get more listeners
As the Moon has strived to have the most complete libraries of Prog artists on the planet, it fails to recognize why some bands sell millions of CD's and some only thousands and most of us Prog. Historians never heard of. There are times I turn away from the stream because although nice, many of the lesserknowns just are not as talented. No, I don't want to see just the dino's, just abetter balance with the giants weighted for more airplay than the smaller bands. As an owner of thousands of recordings and a record dealer in the 80's, I am suprised when 6 bands are listed and none well known. Not a selling point for more listening.
Finally, For more money you need more listeners, Years ago 32 was a common number in the currant listeners listing, you have grown but you need more to increase revenues, as with TV and Commercial radio, Listeners= revenue, good programing=Listeners, average programming = nobody home.........We all lose

[sharcnorris]

I consider the 128k stream a thank you for my donation, not a service for a fee. If that was the case I would complain about it being down(aka buffering) so much. Is this the concequense of limited bandwidth? If so Then I'm starting to see the Moons growth problems. If you pay for a service you expect to get it

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by sharcnorris
Is this the concequense of limited bandwidth?

For the most part, no. The bulk of the rebuffer problems comes about because of limitations in the system that the station runs on. Specifically CPU related. We're investigating alternatives, but as far as I've been able to see, there's nothing economically and technically feasable...at least nothing that won't run in the thousands of dollars.

I'm still looking, though.

Roger -Dot- Lee

[kirk]

sharc- if the station's rebuffering constantly, it's probably
your server. i think once, a year ago or so the stream
bounced to 24k, but other than that i've never had a problem
w/ rebuffering or accessing.
many users don't know this, but all dsl/broadband isn't created equal.
if a server has more than 300 users per hub, which i believe
has something like a 3 mile limitation,
all the old problems w/ dialup, like not being able to access occur.
------------------------------------

guys- i'd really float this past BMI and ASCAP,SESAC.
you can't just rent or lease music, (which is in essense,what you'd be doing,
collecting revenue for playing an artist's music.)
i'm fairly certain that they'd see it as you needing
to pay the requested artists royalties.

on the other hand, 10 revolving banners @$25 for 30 days
pays for the current server space.
i'd call it the "introductory rate" in case demand is high.
as a selling point, i suggest you don't place banners
at the bottom where no one ever looks.

i haven't heard back from PDJ on this, but everyone else i've mentioned a
compilation disk to has responded w/ a (!!) .
..i happen to know someone w/ a decent production facility...
and award-winning to boot!
yesfans just released a fundraiser cd, my bud von's band ONOFFON was on MSJ's
"got prog?" compilation.
everything i'm suggesting is pretty much "tried and true",
not experimenting w/ a winning formula.