Re: This is crazy...........
 

Heh! I like you KW.

let me try the more direct approach. You are wrong.

wrong. he went solo because he wanted to be a band leader, as opposed to songwriter number 5, which he was with Yes.

I've never seen them try, but I'm willing to bet all the members of Yes are very capable of playing jazz.

wrong again. most of my guitarist friends would say classical is hardest, one says flamenco is harder, none say that jazz is inherently harder than rock. I know some good jazz guitarists, for the record.
Many jazz musicians cannot play complex rock. All rock musicians can play simple jazz. Period.

But he did it. And Buddy Rich is amongst the best jazz drummers ever. Neil Peart is excellent, but it's silly to call him the best rock drummer. There are dozens that you could arguably give that title to. For me, playing Neil Peart and playing Buddy Rich are about equally challenging. (and that is very challenging indeed:mad: )

Ha ha ha ha Lol, ROFL, ha

Guffaw, he he he, hardy har har, woooo!

Gotcha! :eek:


I love it. Love it, love it, love it. I can't stop laughing. I nominate THAT LINE as a top five funniest posts ever!:cool:

OK another approach.......ask someone who SHOULD know
 

If you're reading this Jack Foster III aka Jazzraptor, what is your slant on this?

Having played your album a lot in the last few weeks and hearing the wonderful cross overs between prog and jazz I'm SURE you must have an opinion. Would you share it with us?

My opinion on the drumming side of things (for what it's worth and remembering that I'm not a drummer) is that, sure, "Jazz" drumming is difficult but then so is "Rock" drumming. I've sat and marveled at the sticks prowess of Lenny White and everytime I hear it I've often wondered how Phil Collins keeps going during the 'Apocalypse' section of "Suppers Ready". I can only assume that he switches off and goes into automatic mode. I've tried to play along and get lost about 4 bars in. I'm sure that practise makes perfect but it still sounds bloody difficult!!!!!!

I see a lot of Blues Bands when I go gigging and even though most of the songs appear to be in 4/4 time the drummers add their own little flourishes that spice it up.

Well, I agree with you Keith. If it touches you in some way when you listen to it, it's good music . . . regardless of genre. I really don't think jazz is better than prog or vice-versa. They're different.

To play devil's advocate to uzeb: Progressive Rock is more "advanced" than jazz in some ways. Prog often incorporates complex time changes and stray bars; there's very little of that in jazz. Also jazz key changes (ii-V-I to ii-V-I) are more predictable than prog key changes, which can go anywhere at any time. Also, prog rock explores a broader range of aural texture. Artists search for new sounds and combinations of sounds. Turn on a jazz radio station, and 95% of the time you'll hear a standard combo playing with somebody soloing. Jazz artists are more concerned with line through a chorus of changes (and interesting subsitutions) than they are with the aural landscape of the song.

There's improvisation in prog of course, but jazz IS improvisation (over structure). Everybody in the band should be improvizing ALL of the time to a degree. As an accompanist, you comp to solo. So you have to be listening closely at all times in order to fit in, and to improve the whole.

Jazz harmony is typically more sophisticated. But sophistication should not be confused with "better". Some of the most touching music that I've heard is very simple harmonically. And of course, prog harmony can be sophisticated as well.

Jazz song forms are usually simpler than prog forms. Jazz almost always is in the form: chorus, chorus, chorus, chorus . . . chorus, where the first and last chorus contain the actual song melody (called the head). (The chorus often contains a bridge.) Middle choruses are solos. This standard form allows pretty much any jazz guy to play with others; they know the form.

Prog has complex forms and combinations of sections. So where jazz is AAAAA form, prog can be AABCADEAaltBaltFZ!

(You asked for it Keith!)

Bottom line is that they're different. I've known guys who are competent jazz players, but embarrass themselves when they try to play rock; they just don't understand the idiom. And there are guys who play great jazz, but are blown away technically by the best rock guitarists out there. I like listening to good musicians, regardless of genre.

If I read that correctly, jazz = 5 Native American wigwams, and

prog = Swedish pop Drug Enforcement Agency alternating Zappa
in Baltimore

Close?

altough i understand what is uzeb willing to say, i'll say it differently: rock, even prog rock, is a lot more "squary" (can I say that ? :D ) than jazz. Jazz got SWING, which doeasn't have rock.Of course ELP, or other bands swing as well but Yes, since it was the example doesn't swing , at least for me

You're right about swinging, Sharuru, but the point I've been arguing is the claim that jazz is inherently more difficult to play. I am a drummer, and swinging is easy. I've met rock drummers that couldn't swing, and I've met jazz drummers that couldn't NOT swing. They are stylistically different, but neither is harder.

Nice post, jazzraptor. Points taken. This is why I started this post in the first place, to get some other views. And I agree, the bottom line is listening to good musicians, regardless of genre.

so.....
 

we're right back where we started!

Yeah, but so often, rock has Groove. Like King's X says, "Welcom to the Groove Machine."

Yes might not swing, but songs like On the Silent Wings of Freedom definitley have groove.

Then , if it's a question of technicity, of course prog rock musicians are skilled. I'll take Dream Theater as an example. Really impressive, buyt so boring (for me ). Just showing off. All this rollings by portnoy...:o :rolleyes:
Prefer a classic jazz rythm led by Elvin Jones, or John Marshall, my fav drummers. Much more "finesse" if you understand the word.DT is so much heavy, instead of whispering it just screams right into your ears, if you see what i mean.

Damon Che
 

Hey Sharuru, if you are looking for a power drummer with the skills and fluidity of jazz, request latter day Don Caballero. Thier drummer, Damon Che, is killer. Anything off "American Don" is thier jazzier stuff.

Hey do you know about a band called The Bad Plus ? trhis is powerful drumming as well :D

ZACK-lee!!

Nice one Jack.......
 

I knew you would hit the nail on the head Jazz......

Look at a guitarist like Steve Howe. He, of course, plays "Rock" guitar but some of the lines and tones he uses are pure "Jazz". He also plays "Classical" guitar and......well darn it, he's such a great musician he can cross over between lots of styles.

A big difference between Prog and Jazz is the fact that, to these ears at least, the compositions in Prog tend to be more complicated. As Jack says complication shouldn't be confused with better.

I come back to what I said before:

If you like it.magic. If you don't like it......magic too. Just don't dismiss it. If you find the time to look into something you don't, at first, like, you may discover something that is actually a GEM and change your mind. Get someone who does like it to explain why they like it and a whole new world of delights may open up before you.

Nicely done Keith
 

I think I'll put on some Dada!

again another VERY interesting thread
 

i happen to love both branches of prog on this and if i must agree JAZZ nailed it and Jim drove it home too. the complexity of both divisions are note eliminative of each other. and in the hands of throughly competent magicians each can be as complex as the other...why do they get lumped together...because each does the same thing...they break away from the set and settled and travel roads unheard to bring new canvases to the listener.

prog, jazz, fusion...it's all Good and we eat it up here at Aural Moon.

p.s. nice to see that altime #1 quote of yours Jim in context...nearly fell off my chair when i read it.

fusion was not my daddy's music but he could play!

:cool: